Interview: Dubh Lee

On f*cking up, giving up, and getting better

Had a gorgeous chat this week with Dubh Lee, who will be launching her second EP FUFO - which you can listen to here - on Thursday 28th of May with full band in The Cobblestone. Tickets available here, see you there! 🎟️

Also a tiny thank you, as readership is up 5.5k this month which is really wild agus álainn. Thank you for dropping in and for sharing the articles you enjoy, it makes a difference, agus is breá liom é seo a dhéanamh 💘

Emma: I thought we’d start with influences, because it’s quite varied - even within some of the singles, there’s so much variation - so, who were you listening to when you were writing this?

Dubh Lee: Yeah, each song has a really distinct thing going on. I think it’s because I write so disjointedly. I just write when it strikes me. I don’t sit to write.

Say My Poor Boy: I was in a love triangle, so, you know, feeling very upset! I was like “I wanna wail like Marvin Gaye!” But I don’t really make soul music, so it came out in that folk style. And the guitar element - the kind of spaghetti western guitar - that’s really inspired by this gorgeous guitar line on Blue Jeans by Lana Del Ray.

Arms of Rubber… I was listening to The Pogues a lot. Probably learning a couple of songs for gigs, Rainy Night in Soho or something, that pendulum feeling. That’s basically my Shane McGowan take off! And it’s about drinking as well, so kind of apt!

Then FUFO, that just flowed out of me. Listening back, a few of my friends said John Grant - like Greatest Motherfucker - but when we were doing the arrangement it reminded me of a couple of Elliott Smith songs. And I do love Elliott Smith. It wasn’t a conscious influence, but in retrospect, I think I hear that.

The dark humor is very Smith.

Yeah, absolutely! People seem to really be struck by the first line …people were laughing at the Ruby Sessions! It shocked me - it threw me off the line, like! - which was really, really nice. It’s really sweet when people listen to the lyrics.

And… what’s the other song? Sun Down Sad Clown! Writing that, I was thinking about the course of a relationship. It was a Covid relationship. A great relationship, an intense relationship, but it also went through horrible turmoil and chaos and hostility, and then back down. So I was just tracking that shape of that. I couldn’t really say who was influencing me. Somebody else said Radiohead. And that’s great, because I fucking love Radiohead!

I really liked the clip from Who’s Afraid of Virginia Woolfe at the end. One of my favourite things is an old clip or sample, like Paolo Nutini’s Iron Sky using Charlie Chaplin’s voice? So I loved that. But hearing you say “a COVID relationship” struck me. I’ve said it myself, but it’s a real concept - something that other generations never experienced. The fact that there are now songs about it is actually important because… it was such an intense, unique experience, and also somehow universal. And I think it’s something we’re still not ready to look at yet…

I hate using the phrase... I remember just after Covid, everybody was putting out Covid songs, and I was like “I’m not gonna do a Covid song!” But when I really look at it, that song is about Covid. A relationship that lasted the duration of it… and not much longer afterwards, you know?! So yeah, you’re dead right, like, it is a thing!

Definitely a thing! I’m not sure which you were exposed to, but to be either locked in a space with someone, or to be so separated from them, and to try to maintain a normal relationship at the same time was really difficult. I think you really captured that.

Thank you. Good! (laughs)

On that line, that had people laughing - or resonating with! - Why wait until your midlife? You can have a crisis now! …. Something that strikes me about you, and a whole scene of people in Dublin making music at the moment, is that it really makes you rethink the idea you have in your 20’s, where if something doesn’t work out, you’re like “That’s it! That’s my career over! Life over!”. But, actually I love that loads of my friends are releasing a first EP, first album, first book now. It’s not too early or late to start, or to be in the thick of it. And it’s not even a “second wind” thing, it’s just... we have the freedom to exist well into our lives now. And I feel like you’re …on that wave, I guess.

100%. One of the things you said reminded me… when I think of the artists that inspire me, the likes of Leonard Cohen… he only really got going or started getting recognition from the age, like, of 30 onwards, you know?

But the idea of FUFO… I never wanted to “pursue the music thing”. Maybe in my early 20s, I was doing open mics or whatever, but I never thought it would work out. So there’s definitely a “late blooming” thing happening, but there’s definitely more of a culture of that being totally normal now.

When I think of the artists that inspire me, the likes of Leonard Cohen… he only really got going or started getting recognition from the age, like, of 30 onwards, you know?… So there’s definitely a “late blooming” thing happening, but there’s definitely more of a culture of that being totally normal now.

Do you think there’s a gendered aspect to it?

Well, I …. I’ve never thought of it, but potentially, you know.

Oh, but it’s a good sign if you haven’t had to think about it!

True!! But no, in a way, I have thought about... I increasingly have this intrusive thought that I need to keep my face looking young, because it’ll affect bookings and shit. Which is… I’m a feminist! Like, dyed in the wool, 100% feminist! But I have these intrusive thoughts like, “I better keep looking younger so that I stay relevant, so people will want to book me.” And I would like to dispel those. There is definitely a fucking sexism or misogyny aspect to that thinking… I don’t think I’ve ever admitted that to anybody before!

Well thank you for saying it, then! But I think everyone feels it to some degree. I’d be much the same where I’m like, “no, you’re not allowed to think about, don’t need to think about… an anti-aging cream… or being pretty” or whatever. But at the same time, it’s everywhere. I work in the media and I do wonder… if you’re supposed to be on camera all the time, and if you’re not comfortable doing that… what happens?

Yeah absolutely. And you have the thought, but you push it away. But, you know… it is there!

There’s also pressure - maybe not gendered, everyone feels it to a point - but I think women in particular, of our generation were told, “You can have it all! You can have the job, the career, the creative thing. You can have a family! And you should!” But realistically, in terms of time, capacity, and … being human… you can’t do it all. And I feel like you excavate that in your writing as well.

Absolutely. Since I left college I worked a day job, and I did music on the side. I worked in finance and research and different office jobs, you know. I was like “I can do this, this is great”. But I was barely sleeping, so I was using substances to keep going… and by the end of last year, it was also really badly affecting my posture. I had a repetitive strain injury, and working at a laptop all day was making it worse. I had to take a two-month break off gigs, and 10 days off work. And… I had had this idea that I could “do it all”, and when I stopped being able to physically do it all, this idea that I was, like, failing, you know?

But then I started doing the -have you ever heard of The Artist Way?

I’m actually doing it at the moment!

No way!

I mean, this is my third time starting. But this is the time!

Oh! See, I’m exactly the same - I started it twice in my 20s, and then I started it again there last year. And obviously it’s a 12 week course or whatever, but it’s taken me 6 months or something!

But when I started the process, the journaling, I was like “I really need to stop doing all this work that doesn’t serve me.” I’m working eight or nine hours a day, to pay for the substances to keep me going to the gigs that I really care about. But then I’m running myself ragged, making my life more expensive, making my body more painful. And at some point, I just finally had enough. And I was scared that it wouldn’t work out. But it is working out, which is great!

So are you full-time playing music now, and that’s better for you?

Yeah, I left my job in August, and now I have more time, obviously, to work on my music. So my guitar playing has improved. I’ve written more songs. I’ve also been able to spend more time in the gym, which I need to do because if I don’t actually work out, then my guitar playing gets harder. And I definitely have less money, but I’m also not trying to make myself feel better all the time, and spending my money all the time to make me happy.

Oh, that’s interesting! You rarely think of the cost of the work we do.

Yes! It’s expensive to have a full-time job! Especially if you don’t like your job! Even, like, the lunches, or the way you eat quickly and stuff like that. I’m so privileged.... to be able to make money off cover gigs - and my original music now. I’m just so lucky that I don’t have to necessarily run myself ragged like that anymore, you know?

Absolutely, amazing. And I love how DIY and authentic the whole thing is. I saw on Instagram last night you were making t-shirts. I really respect that. A lot of that is lost to the machine, and the industry of it all now. And actually, I think people are looking for that, like… *rubbing my fingers together and making zero sense* … it’s nearly a tactile experience! Like a real thing!

Yeah! 100%! Obviously when you release music, you play the game, do all the posts and fucking all the emails and stuff like that. And I don’t mind that too much. But I wanted to sell merch with this EP. And I’m quite anti-consumerist. I’d say 80% of the clothes I wear are second-hand, you know, charity shop clothes. I’m quite anti-fast fashion. And I thought it would be hypocritical to expect people to buy new clothing to support me. So basically I’m going around second-hand shops, buying plain t-shirts and then printing on them at home. Now, it’s fu- (laughs) it’s a mess, like! I don’t know how to do cyanotype printing! So the first few were…. I’ll just keep them because they’re not very good-looking But I’m getting the hang of it! It’ll be a very limited run because it’s time-consuming, but I can also make them to order. I was thinking if people have a T-shirt that they really like the shape of and they want me to then print on it, then I can also do it after the fact as well. So in that sense then, yeah, it just feels more sustainable and it’s not hypocritical then, because it’s all second-hand stuff.

That’s so cool. And it’s also special. The limited run thing makes it more covetable in a way.

Made by the artist as well, like, which is nice, isn’t it?

Yeah. I do always love that. Like Laura Marling does prints, and The Staves did for a while, lino art and stuff. I feel I’m nearly on the opposite side of that, where I’m now in a position where I get offered free tickets for gigs I would usually have paid my way in to. Which obviously, is amazing and I’m delighted, but when it’s a small band or Irish artist I do just have such guilt about taking a ticket for free… so I’m going straight to the merch and …

(laughs) Buying a shirt!

Every shirt! I want to give something back, support them, but I literally have more shirts than I can wear!

Hahaha, yeah. That’s gas.

I think we have the bones of it there, but is there anything you’d like to add? Or anything you want people to take from the EP?

That’s a good question. Jesus. I don’t have a special, like, thesis statement about it yet, you know? I love the songs. Just…. I just want people to listen!

Tickets for the FUFO EP Launch, 28th May in The Cobblestone are available here! 🎟️